While hiking with my wife and sons, my eldest boy's friend, and said friend's mother and aunt, the discussion turned to a "naughty barista" coffee shack that had opened near their home. If you're not familiar with the craze, this is where little drive-thru coffee shacks drum up business by hiring young women and dressing them in bikinis, lingerie, or even having them go topless and wear pasties to meet minimum public decency standards. We talked about how such places seemed to be multiplying, seemed to be trying to push the envelope of decency as competition increased, and what could be done.
The idea was a web site where concerned neighbors of such stands could set up on the sidewalk in front of them (on public property) and take photos of the cars and people who patronized them, then post those photos to a web site which would make a searchable/browseable database of the license plates. I'd even suggest that people put the camera on a tripod and put a sign under it saying "Congratulations! Your car's photo and license plate will appear on coffeperverts.com within 48 hours. Enjoy your coffee!"
The tech to do the site is actually not difficult. I could probably build the site inside of a week. The difficulties are to find people willing to stand in front of these places and take photos, then enter them into the site, plus covering the site's legal butt when a business owner or customer sued over being in the database.
I'd win all the suits. Neither the businesses or their customers have an expectation of privacy regarding commerce conducted not only in public but in plain view of a street. But I'd still have to pay lawyers to win the suits for me. And if one of the users made a typo on a license plate... not sure what the liability might be there.
So I figured I'd throw the idea out to my readers and see if any wanted to run with it. If you think this is a venture you'd like to pursue, coffeepervs.com and coffeeperverts.com were both available for resgistration at GoDaddy a couple of minutes ago.
Let me know if you do it. I've got some time to go shoot some pics at Java Juggs.
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I'm a bit slow at times, so I have to ask - do these places really exist or is this a joke? If they do, can they actually get away with the pasties part?
What if one of the girl's Dads comes through? Do they have ones with men in the same serving situations (not likely)?
@Winnie - these places really exist. Java Juggs is on Highway 99 in Everett, WA, across from the southern end of the Wal-Mart parking lot.
And ... why is this a problem?
This is a problem when you are driving past with a 4 year old who is learning to read and wants to know what a pasty is - and it's 500 feet from your street so you don't have an option to take a different route. I get that he's not going to be innocent forever - but good grief!
For my money, it's "adult entertainment," like a strip club or adult bookstore, but it doesn't have the same regulations on it that strip clubs do. I no more want it near my house than I want a massage parlor that provides happy endings. For me it's not so much the uncomfortable explanations to the kids as the kind of undesirable element it attracts.
And, Leo, I'm pretty sure you're playing devil's advocate. In my opinion, the only way you'd patronize a "naughty barista" place is if they had the best coffee around and you were tolerating the insult to your intelligence so you could get at the coffee.
Actually, no, this time I'm not playing devil's advocate. (I
know, that's unusual for me.)
I mostly object to the characterization of the patrons as
perverts. I object to the judgmental position that the idea
promotes. I object to vigilantism as a means to promote one
groups idea of what is and is not decent over another's.
In fact I'll go so far as to say that I find it offensive.
Much more offensive than partially exposed breasts.
I don't find these places offensive. A little stupid maybe,
but not offensive. I don't patronize them because they
typically server sub-standard coffee and are not convenient
to my travels. If they did serve good coffee, and if they
happened to be convenient I probably would patronize them,
regardless of how much clothing they happened to wear.
It's a gimmick. And as a gimmick I hope you realize that all
the righteous indignation only serves *their* business, not
yours.
I'm not saying that there isn't potential for abuse, but
that potential's not limited or unique to bikini barristas
in any way.
To single them out as a class - or worse, to single out
their patrons as a class to somehow be shamed is ...
Well, it's shameful.
So Leo - were an establishment with this type of gimmick to pop up walking distance from your house - bringing down your property value and opening the door to more lurid businesses, in addition to making for difficult discussions with your 4 year old how would you propose handling it? Looking for ideas.
I know it is simple, but have you asked the owner to place blinds on the street sides of the coffee hut. You may also try the health department. I thought there is a shirt required clause for the health department but I could not find one. However I did find this
When to 2-301.14 When to Wash.
Wash
FOOD EMPLOYEES shall clean their hands and exposed portions of their arms as specified under ยง 2-301.12
immediately before engaging in FOOD preparation including working with exposed FOOD, clean EQUIPMENT
and UTENSILS, and unwrapped SINGLE-SERVICE and SINGLE-USE ARTICLES and:
(A) After touching bare human body parts other than clean hands and clean, exposed portions of
arms;
If you can catch them touching their stomach and then not washing their hands they can be fined. I tried to get a solid definition on what "Indecent exposure" means according to the Everett City Ordinances but could not find one. Might be worth a call to the DA's office because if a minor can see it then it could shut down the place. Hope this helps.
I agree with Leo 100%.
As far as blaming Java Juggs as lowering someone's property value; the same can be said about the Wal Mart that is across the street.
If you are complaining because at some point your child is going to ask you what a certain word means, and you don't want to explain; I have one response, BE A PARENT! It is a part of parenthood to explain these things. Are you going to complain about a women's magazine with the word lingerie on the cover because your child might ask what that means?
I am just upset that we have turned into such an oppressive society. I saw on the news last night that in certain cities women showing thong underwear or wearing pants that can be seen through (with underwear on) are going to be considered indecent exposure and illegal. The very fabric that makes this country one of the greatest in the world is slowly eroding away. If every time someone gets offended, laws are made to prevent said offense, there will be no freedom.
Another thing that bothers me is that everything seems to be a double standard. Prime example:
Janet Jackson during a superbowl half time show bears a breast that had a pasty on it (sorry if your child is reading this and you have to explain the word pasty) and is shown for a few seconds. That incident changed the face of this country. Fines were handed out to radio and TV personalities like fliers on the Vegas Strip to tourists, for things as small as referring to a womens breast in any way even educationally. Yet, not a few months prior, Lil Kim went to an awards ceremony (not sure which one, Grammys?) wearing a dress with an exposed breast that had a pasty on it. Diana Ross even played with the breast by bouncing it on national TV. Not only did nobody complain, pictures were on the cover of People Magazine, and other tabloids that were easily seen and read at countless newspaper stands and checkout lines in supermarkets. Nothing was done then, why? Was it because the target audience of one show is women, and the other men?
I have yet to go to an espresso stand that had a Barista dressed in anything more provocative than what would be seen at a public pool or at the beach. I am not saying they don't exist, but I have been to the accused stand, Java Juggs, and saw nothing but a bikini. If you want to take my picture while I go there, I will gladly smile and wave for you.
George, are you a parent? Just seems that people who shout "be a parent" tend to be people who have never actually had to do it.
And let's not forget that while speech may technically be free, it can be segregated and controlled when it's commercial.
Free speech is not an absolute, nor should it be. The city can tell you when to turn down your stereo or require a permit for a parade. You can be arrested for inciting to riot or making terrorist threats. You can be required to print nutritional information on a menu, warn that your product is dangerous, or get fined for making claims that you can't back up.
So let's not pretend that everything is or should be permitted. It's not a matter of whether a line is drawn, but where. Some people would prefer these places that have no redeeming social value and are intended to make a buck off of appealing to prurient interests be farther from residential areas.
Wow - I scrolled very far back to find this after finding something on MSN and was surprised to find this debate going on. It's nice to see this kind of discourse.
I was planning to come, post the link below, and say "Greg, did you do this?", but now... *backs out of room*
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31203766/?GT1=43001
George, I see your point, but the situation you used to compare "double standards" was kind of flimsy - it was the MTV Music Awards 9/9/99 that Lil' Kim wore that and Diana Ross did the infamous "pat up"- and the Superbowl is something that has been "family entertainment" for years (I know plenty of women, men, and children who gather and watch as an event, a tradition).
I'm not saying that I don't think things were blown out of proportion in the Superbowl situation (they were - you make good points, especially about what was affected), but as for your example, it's like Jon Stewart said in regard to Tucker Carlson criticizing him for his interviews on "The Daily Show" in the midst of Stewart criticizing "Crossfire": "the lead-in to my show is puppets who make crank calls". If it were indeed The Grammys, you'd have a point. But this is MTV we're talking about - home of the recent "Twilight Awards" (which may or may not have been billed as something else completely).
I am a parent, and I definitely think too many people use the "my kids shouldn't have to see/hear that" excuse to censor (and I'm willing to bet one day, I may invoke that, because I don't want my kids to go to school with kids who wear shirts that say "Martin Luther King, Jr. was a n-gger who got what he deserved", and I will fight to keep those kinds of shirts out of my kids' school), but I also agree with Greg that "be a parent" is overused as well - sometimes there's more to it than that, and society has its part, too.
Those parents who send their 6 year-olds to Britney Spears concerts looking like they just left The Player's Club - they should be ridiculed - not Britney Spears (she should, however, be ridiculed for the movie "Crossroads", not being able to sing very well, and bringing Kevin Federline into all of our lives). But on the other hand, actresses (etc...) who decide to tell people how to vote or not to take certain kinds of medications/eat certain kinds of food - (I don't mind saying why you want to vote how you vote, or who you're going to vote for, or what you believe in), because they know it will influence some (not that I'm letting easily influenced people/those who will take someone's word for it (because they play a character/write a book/sing a song they like - and that's on any side of the political spectrum) off the hook) of their fans. Yes, as a parent (not that it's only kids, either - or even kids I was mainly referring to), I'm responsible for making sure my kids are healthy (to the extent that I can - I know when I was a child, I respected/listened to my parents, but I also had a mind of my own) and taken care of with shelter, food, medical care, etc..., but you still have those out there spreading opinion-as-fact and preying on people.
I know people who were raised by liberals who are conservative - is this "bad"? Were their parents "not being parents" because they chose for themselves? I know many people who were raised in a very religious background that are now athiests - is this "bad"? Did their parents "improperly shield them or not shield them enough"? Yes, I generally sit on the Fahrenheit 451 side of things - I'm not comfortable with much of the censorship and "judging" that goes on (but I'm a hypocrite, as I said I'm sure there's a situation in which I'd do it - but I also don't have a true platform/microphone in my face (and usually keep things to my family and taking care care of them - not trying to impose my ideas on others unless it will finally affect my family, which is likely what some are thinking when they do this), which is what makes me different) who decides, and where does it stop - but that doesn't mean everything should be allowed.
The property values/dangerous element worry is relevant. Good point, Leo - no, not everyone who wants to go to his place are perverts - I love the novelty of the orange short-short clad women of Hooters (and I actually like the wings, despite the rumor that no one goes to Hooters for the wings), and I'm not there to ogle them - though many are hot.
See, now you guys have me rambling. But what's new...
*everyone groans as she comes back, with no responses to reply to*
Oh, and I think "judgmental blogger" is an oxymoron - isn't that what we all do? To paraphrase "Ghostbusters 2": Being miserable and treating other people like dirt is every [blogger's] right! Just as it's every readers right to chime in.
I don't like serious generalizations (and trust me, many of my words will come and bite me in the ass), but if I was to say, "If you saw the pervs who went into the Grand View *snicker* Topless Coffee Shop, you'd quickly realize that wasn't really foam on their lattes", all joking aside, there is a chance that could be true. I'm not saying it's right, but I can guarantee that most, if not all, people, have their assumptions that others might not appreciate, but it wouldn't make it any less true or indicative of the majority. If someone makes a joke (or a serious comment) that involves someone that looks like me or has my occupation, and I think there's some truth to it, I'll give them their credit (heck - I'm usually the first to make a crack about it). While I realize saying that can open me up to a lot of fire if I ever again purport to being "offended" (it's not often), I frequently state that individuals should be judged as individuals, not by a larger group that they "belong to", either by birth, environment/upbringing or choice.
That being said, I'm done contradicting myself. Anyone know where I can get a killer cappucino while getting advice on where to find pasties?
What a bunch of winers.
Thanks to all of you who defended the bikini coffee stands.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009935633_webbaristas24m.html
Five baristas at a bikini-stand near my house were arrested for prostitution and other forms of lewd conduct. It's NOT the same as women wearing bikinis at the beach because these women are being paid to expose skin for a prurient interest, and to make extra money, as we see, they go beyond simply dressing in scanty clothes.
There was a drive-thru espresso shack called Uncommon Grounds near my home in Romoland, California. I didn't even know the servers there wore lingerie until long after it had been closed down. On 9/11/09 i intercepted a text message on my husband's phone from one of the former servers there and discovered he had been having an affair with her for the past 6 months. She engaed in a 2 hour long text conversation thinking I was him the whole time. She is also married and has children. Later we actually spoke on the phone and I had a very painful discussion with her wherein she told me that her husband was aware of her extramarital sexual encounters and that she was sorry for any pain she had caused, among other painful information which I will not disclose here. I have been diligently, albeit unsuccessfully, attempting to located any other women (or men) who have had similar experiences with anyone in the former employ of Uncommon Grounds in Romoland, particularly with server Robin.
Where the hell do you get the time to think of a WEBSITE to exploit these girls? WHO CARES. Do you really have that much free time on your hands to try and figure out a way to stop them? And who gives a crap about your kids! Didn't you know that's what you were getting into when you decided to conceive a child? I'm pretty sure you're going to have a lot more "talks" and they're all not going to be about a stupid coffee stand with hot girls in it. Why don't you get off your high horse and let these girls do their job. They don't ASK for your kid to look at them and if your husband is going there because he wants to see some T&A once in a while then that's your problem right? And how does that make a guy a pervert just because he wants to see a sexy girl while he gets his coffee? Doesn't that just make him straight? Just remember, those girls probably make more money in a day then you do in an entire week... can you really blame them? I in fact work at a bikini espresso stand and I love it. I don't wear pasties and I don't flash my privates to anyone. I make a good living and I love my customers! And I only TREAT them like customers. I'm absolutely SHOCKED that someone would actually want to put us in danger by putting our picture and license plates on the internet for anyone to see? WOW. It's crazy how much time and effort you people put into talking trash about these espresso stands. GET OVER IT. They're here to stay!!
CORRECTION. I can't believe you would take pictures of the CUSTOMERS along with their license plates and exploit THEM. You don't have any clue who they are or why they're there. Please focus all that extra attention you have on something more important!
@Barista,
It's actually a well-known tactic used to shut down distasteful businesses. Instead of catching the perps in the act, just take pictures of their clients coming and going. The police have done this outside massage parlors that were fronts for prostitution, neighborhood groups have done it outside houses where drugs are sold. The clients don't like having their pictures shown on the web (some police actually had public access cable shows where they showed the pictures before the internet got popular). Soon enough, the distasteful business has no clients and shuts down.
If you're afraid that a public shaming tactic that is used to shut down drug dealers and whores would hurt your business, perhaps you're in the wrong business.
Prostitution and selling illicit drugs are illegal activities. Wearing reveling clothing and serving coffee are not illegal. Comparing the employees of Java Juggs, and those who chose to patronize such a place, is a perversion pf the worst kind. America is a country in which the 'Rule of Law' is paramount.
Photographing someone and publishing it with out permission is illegal. Please abide by the law.
"Photographing someone and publishing it with out permission is illegal. Please abide by the law."
Tell that to the paparazzi who take photos of celebrities and publish them without permission all the time and without consequence. Tell it to the local news team doing a "hidden camera Investigation."
When it's for the purpose of "news" or other constitutionally protected speech,you'd be surprised who you can photograph and where. If they have the money and a willing lawyer, they can always sue. But if they're in a state with anti-SLAPP laws, like Washington, they better be sure they win. In Washington, if the defendant proves a SLAPP claim, the plaintiff can be dinged for the defense costs plus up to $10,000.
I actually was just concerned about the customers, not the business. I will always have business no matter what anyone tries to do.
Please stop trying to impose your standards on other people. If you don't like the idea, don't buy their coffee.
If you do not want the people who work at Java Juggs to stand outside then, by all means, go to your local politician and raise a petition. Work within the law.
But taking photos and invading our civil right is the wrong way to go about change.